12-06-2009, 11:30 PM
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12-06-2009, 11:32 PM
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12-06-2009, 11:32 PM
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This indicates the fear response that people associate with other people's chaotic states of mind.
Consequently, I am scared to interact with any psychiatrist, especially the department director, Betty Pfefferbaum, who I called out in front of the entire OUHSC senate in an e-mail for trying to "find treatment" for me (and creepily said, "where are you John?") when I told her over the phone that I experienced psychological abuse in her hospital.
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12-06-2009, 11:49 PM
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I know this is fucking intense.
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12-06-2009, 11:55 PM
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John, You're going to be OK. There are people who care about you, really. Don't worry about this woman. Just do what you need to do. No one is out to commit you. You'll be fine.
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12-07-2009, 12:12 AM
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I should mention (you did yourself) that psychiatrists have dozens, hundreds of patients. The ones at the top of their lists are in their hospitals and offices, the ones at the bottom are...where ever you are.
Despite what you may think you haven't caused them any damage. Unfortunately, your critiques are familiar to any person that's read Foucault, etc. There's no reason for them to come after you. You've made an informed critique, but nothing is new about it. Get some rest.
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12-07-2009, 01:43 AM
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First of all, I totally agree with your assessment of the current mental health facility status. Richard Bandler has been saying this same thing since the 1970s.
but:
"This is absurd, as nothing about the most extreme state of psychosis removes your ability to make moral choices. That state is a pretext for immoral people to commit violence. I can say that from experiencing its depths that few individuals have."
I do not agree.
The midbrain is evolutionary MUCH more developed than the Pre Frontal Cortex which makes 'moral decisions.' Us humans are at the tip of it being even functional.
How can you remember your chaotic state correctly from memory since the human biological memory system is horribly inaccurate? I work at a molecular neuroscience memory lab, and having an understanding of what scientists in 2009 know about memory, I do not trust memories to be accurate, they are based on faulty perceptions.
How can experiencing the chaotic state accurately allow you to predict a quality about it? I mean honestly, you said you went in to "indescribable" states of mind.
The brain is a chemical factory and with the right chemicals being activated I think anyone could become violent. Your brain is running a fuck ton of chemical equations. Everything is based on a probability.
I am genuinely interested in your reply, as I would like to be proved wrong.
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12-07-2009, 01:54 AM
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I also want to add that my dad is bipolar, and I am manic but have never 'lost control.'
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12-07-2009, 02:28 AM
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Thanks man. I really appreciate it. This has freaked me out pretty bad, as you can understand.
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12-07-2009, 03:03 AM
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First, you put "moral decisions" in quotes, as if there is no such thing as morality or virtue, separate from chemical/physical reality. I assert that there is a moral realm apart from the physical and that a change to the brain, whether through an object penetrating it or hitting it forcefully, may affect how it configures the mind, but the ability to make moral decisions about violent cruelty (not outbursts of anger or violence in response to injustice or self-defense) remains intact. Regardless of whether you have found it yet in chemicals, I assert that it is there.
You say "more developed," which really just means bigger. The influence of something is not necessarily dependent on its size.
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Scientists find representations of memory and model their systems. Many of the reasons why memory can be faulty can be found in "Vital Lies, Simple Truths." I assert that much of the time it has nothing to do with an inherent inaccuracy of the system, but rather 99% of people's rationalizations, repressions, denials, and projections that protect them from painful truths from their pasts and current situations. Should you test a patient who has read that book, his memory could represent differently in your data than the average subject.
The scientific understanding of the brain is limited, though the literature is vast and areas of it mapped out. For example, there are neurotransmitters that have not been accounted for and there really isn't an understanding of what most of them do. In 20 years the current discoveries of memory could be upended with more sophisticated ones. At that time, perhaps you would say, "the memory is inaccurate in this case because __" not "the memory is inaccurate in general."
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Describe being drunk. Really all you can say is, "drunk." Your answer, though, is that the feeling of the chaotic state returns to me from time to time. Sometimes it lasts 5 minutes, other times it lasts 30 minutes. I can give you words to point to it, but the experience is usually beyond words because most people have not experienced it and therefore there is no vocabulary to use to communicate it. Also, it isn't a constant. It changes in quality and intensity all the time. Right now as I type I feel fine (thought I know later I'll return to worrying about powerful, scary psychiatrists who describe me to people as "needing treatment"). If you want to have a glimpse into the atmosphere and undercurrent of the mixed state of manic depression I have felt, watch this video I uploaded of Skinny Puppy's song, Worlock:
This is apart from our scientific and philosophical discussion, but I allow for the metaphysical possibility that I may be paying for past karmic debts through this intense suffering. This may not be true, but that is what it feels like when I go through this pain.
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Unfortunately, all many neuroscientists see is a chemical factory instead of a tiny representational image of what is taking place in the mind. Notice that "factory" refers to something engineered, which the brain is not according to evolutionary theory. Consider instead that it is in motion and that is enough to describe what it is. That activity represents your mind, which is not the image of the brain or its neurons as equations (what keeps those equations going, by the way?). What neuroscientists have discovered has often been fascinating, maybe vital, to our understanding of parts of ourselves, but it is a small picture into what is taking place.
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12-07-2009, 03:11 AM
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There may be neurochemical correlates to behavior, but that does not mean they determine all of them. Your behavior is more your own when you uncover your blindspots. Additionally, if you injected someone with a chemical that made them commit a cruel act and you knew it would do that, you would be committing an immoral act. I would say that it would be more likely that the chemical would cause them to commit an act of violence, but not against anyone as cruelty unless they chose.
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12-07-2009, 03:28 AM
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What's new, perhaps, is that it comes from a patient who is both familiar with how psychiatry works from the inside as well as experienced in depths of hell in mind chaos. Contrasted with a philosopher or psychologist, this seems to carry more weight from my perspective. That may make it a more serious threat.
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12-07-2009, 04:35 AM
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You are no threat.
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12-07-2009, 08:30 AM
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I've already given my advice, so I can't do anything for you except repeat myself. You're on your own. You won't get anywhere with this without the support of someone with some kind of clout.
There are plenty of 'sociopaths' that can convince entire rooms of people there is nothing wrong with them (not that I am suggesting you're trying to pull one over on us).
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12-07-2009, 09:20 AM
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12-07-2009, 09:28 AM
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TOO FUCKING LONG, DIDNT BOTHER TO READ
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12-07-2009, 12:37 PM
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I put "moral decisions" in quotes, because there is no such thing as morality or virtue, separate from chemical/physical reality. If all humans died today would morality still be a law of nature? The evolution of a moral realm may enhance survival, but it is not necessary for an organism's survival. If you are brain damaged by chemicals, or killed physically, your morals are no more so I assert that they are not separate from chemical/physical reality.
I assert that the midbrain is essential for survival, while the PFC is not. Evidence is other animals with midbrains that survive without a PFC and it's 'morals.'
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From a neuroscience view, when a memory is made, a change physically has to happen in the neural wiring of the brain. Memory is neural circuits that fire together. When you access a memory, you are accessing a set of neural connections that was similar to the experience, but these stored neural connections are a FRACTION of those fired during the experience itself, therefore the memory is inaccurate compared to the actual experience. Consider a 1MB image file and compress it down to 50KB. Data will inevitability will be lost forever. Psychologically The memory is put through many filters elegantly described in the book "The Seven Sins of Memory" by Daniel Schacter. THEN these already inaccurate memories are further warped by the rationalizations, repressions, denials, and projections described in "Vital Lies, Simple Truths."
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I understand that chemicals are a tiny representational image of what is taking place in the mind. I used the factory metaphor as a way of saying that even just one chemical going out of balance can destroy the in motion of the mind. Chemicals can override what happens in the mind. Your mind can be psychologically 'perfect' but with a dose of LSD or Heroin, your mind is fucked. You said it best yourself "I eventually required immediate administration of an antipsychotic in an emergency room because the situation got so out of control. Miraculously, I took the antipsychotic and returned to almost normal within 24 hours. It still amazes me." If chemicals are a small picture compared to mind, then why did this miraculously occur?
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What keeps the chemical equations going is physics. What keeps physics equations going is unknown.
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12-07-2009, 12:50 PM
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Morals are SUBJECTIVE.
There are no objective moral vs immoral acts.
If Hitler had developed the atom bomb the prevailing morals in the world would be much different than they are today.
You have ALREADY been injected with chemicals due to immoral acts. Bisphenol A, a manmade environmental contaminant that causes changes in your hormonal regulation system is running through your bloodstream as we speak.
Antipsychotics are usually dopamine antagonists. Since this helped you maybe there was something wrong with your dopamine receptors.
"A 2009 study on rats has concluded that prenatal and neonatal exposure to low-dose BPA causes deficits in development at dorsolateral striatum via altering the function of dopaminergic receptors."
That is just the tip of the iceberg and that is just one chemical.
Millions of indirect immoral acts have made you who you are.
Does this make you 'tainted' by immortal acts?
Does that make your being moral or immoral?
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12-07-2009, 06:35 PM
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Watch Fight Club if you want to worship the main character, name yourself after him, and then start a cult called RSD.
But seriously good point, read Nietzsche 50 times and then get back to us.
I was going to write discovering nihilism was awesome, but then I realized I didn't care.
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12-07-2009, 07:42 PM
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You can't know this, can you, since you can't conduct science on morals, especially after death. Tell me this. What does science have to say about the ideal political system? What does science have to say about the political system that strikes you as most fair? If everything is pointless, why have you not killed yourself yet, as there are no morals, no values, nothing that exists outside chemical equations?
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In your severely limiting epistemology, the only thing the universe is concerned with is survival.
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Who gave you this information? People who died? Did you find this out scientifically?
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So what.
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So what.
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That is not incompatible with what I am saying. I am saying that the physical change is a representation. You say it controls you deterministically in all aspects of behavior. Why are you even going on with life with that point of view?
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No, memory is recall. You developed the concept of neural circuits and now you think that's all there is.
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Since your instruments to judge this are crude and there are billions of neurons in the brain and and a total lack of understanding of what happens in it, perhaps you don't have the full picture of memory. Is that possible?
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The brain is not a digital computer. Please read John Searle's "Chinese Room Argument."
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How did you arrive at this causal relationship, since I know of no neurochemical models of rationalizations, repressions, etc.?
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The language you use indicates how you think.
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More accurately, they are external objects that change its configuration. Just like breaking a leg or pouring alcohol on a cut to disinfect it.
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Sure. But moral choice in regards to cruel violence is not necessarily affected because, as I said, that realm exists outside the influence of chemicals. Notice that I said in regards to cruel violence. Other morals could, perhaps, be compromised, but I am not taking that position right now.
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Ask the scientists who stumbled upon the chemical configuration of Olanzapine (Zyprexa) by accident. No one knows.
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And that last sentence is a picture into the infinite depth of your mind, which should not be crudely simplified by the practice of reductionist science as exemplified by psychiatry.
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12-07-2009, 08:02 PM
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Authority considers dissent a threat. Look at RSD, which censors its blog posts, makes people sign non-compete contracts barring them from teaching pickup for 3 years, and locks forum posts that question its policies.
Now take that authority situation and apply it to a multi-billion dollar industry in which people have spent decades of their lives training in a topic that creates fear in almost anyone, pursuing a mode of medical care they strongly believe exists tied into extremely powerful pharmaceutical companies. The emotional investment of millions of people in this situations extremely high. They are not going to let that go very easily. That page and all organizations that disagree with them are a huge threat to them.
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12-07-2009, 08:27 PM
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You should really chop up a Ritalin and snowcone it on a big bongload of Bubba Kush. Inhale.
Wash rinse repeat.
That or drink really heavily.
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12-07-2009, 10:04 PM
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Falun Dafa has been helping a lot.
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12-07-2009, 10:06 PM
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G 68
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12-07-2009, 10:43 PM
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I suppose your morals live on after death by being socially handed down.
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I am hippocritic, but it works. Deep down inside I feel nihilistic, neither positive nor negative. But being nihilistic is pointless in itself so instead of doing nothing I create an artificial drive to appease my mind with knowledge and have pleasurable experiences. But through this delusion I can enjoy pleasure and be positive and not be affected by pain and negativity. In my limited experience this is a very effective strategy.
Before I was nihilistic, I had a friend who was a pure nihilist. He was one of the most socially awkward person I ever met, and I asked him "Who don't you just kill yourself?" He immediately said that would involve too much effort without batting an eye. Instead of being an outcast like him I choose to play with society even if it delusional.
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The universe is not concerned with survival, evolution, which produced life as we know it, is only concerned with survival (and replication.)
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Ok.
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Understood.
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That is indeed the case.
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Ok, I will read this book.
That was a metaphor for the loss of information.
Do you acknowledge that information is lost when a memory is formed?
For instance, go in notepad and start typing out the whole book "Chinese Room Argument." from memory. You can't.
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I started that sentence with "Psychologically," was not talking about neurochemistry here apologies. That book is more of a psychology book.
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Agreed.
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Agreed.
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I do not understand your language of realm, please clarify.
It seems that some beings think that cruel violence is necessary to enforce morals, but you say the act of cruel violence itself is immoral. How can you prove you are right and they are wrong you both cite the moral realm for your reasoning?
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Agreed.
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Agreed. I suppose we could think about these issues for days upon days day and night writing novels to each other detailing all the complications, but well, there are other things to attend to in life so we try to simplify things.
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12-08-2009, 12:04 AM
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I don't know how it works exactly.
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Who is the "I" creating the artificial drive to appease your mind? Are you and your mind the same?
Pause to reflect.
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Rationalization for fear of death. Killing yourself is very easy and there are many ways to do it.
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You chose to live a miserable life than face the terror of killing yourself. I don't blame you.
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So you say.
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Maybe. I don't know.
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It could still be there. Why not?
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Cruel violence and violence are not the same. If you have to kill a psychiatrist who is drugging you against your will in a prison-like environment and is against what you consider your best interest when you have committed no immoral acts, that is moral, regardless of what the laws say. Additionally, killing yourself in that situation is moral, I assert. If a psychiatrist were to disallow you from killing yourself in a tortuous situation like that, he or she would be committing an immoral act.
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I say that there are morals because there is an inherent sense of morality in everyone and that is what is there. If you want evidence, I cannot prove it within an evolutionary reductionist science framework.
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I would say it is one of the most important topics of conversations to arrive at high moral truths so that we can all conduct ourselves gracefully.
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12-08-2009, 12:34 AM
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I am a human being and my brain creates my mind.
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I don't have a miserable life, I have had no trauma compared to 99% of other humans, lots of fun things happen. I am still optimistic and more motivated than most people.
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I get the sense that you think humans are 'special' in the universe. Why are they so special that they above the physical?
Why don't animals have morals?
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There is actually a book called The Holographic Universe that says this indeed the case. Very mysterious.
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Interesting.
If someone commits an immoral act, but thinks it is a moral act, what happens?
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Why would anyone commit immoral acts if there is an inherent sense of morality in everyone and that is what is there? If that was the case, why is utopia not automatic?
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If morality is so important, why is morality not a stronger drive like sleep or hunger? For instance something why not something like a reflex that stops you from committing immoral acts in the first place like the gag reflex or blink reflex.
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12-08-2009, 01:03 AM
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Urban undeground. Dude. You're under social conditioning
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12-08-2009, 01:49 AM
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What if your brain was an image projection of your mind?
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That is way intense. Wow. Very admirable. I really admire him.
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I don't know man, living in a deluded society can be miserable at times even though there are fun things in between. You said that you chose between the two options of living in a deluded society and killing yourself, so that's what I was responding to.
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Why isn't everything above the physical, humans, as well as everything else?
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I want to check that out.
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Good question. I don't know.
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Because many times it's much easier to look away than take right action. That would be the case in the last mental hospital I was in (I have only been in a hospital twice), in which the staff looked at me with a blank stare when I screamed-- after they refused to believe that my normal conversation indicated I was normal-- "you all are fucking unconscious and you don't even know it. wake the fuck up."
They just stared and the psychiatrist gave me a klonopin pill, though he was shaken a little. Why? Think about how hard it would be for someone to jump up and say, "this is fucked up guys. this guy shouldn't be here." No, they are afraid of losing their job, disagreeing with authority, the structure of which is rigid in psychiatric situations. They don't want to lose their job because then they would have less or no money or potentially be homeless. So it often goes like that. That is the dynamic that created the Holocaust.
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I don't know. Good question. But if we are going to build a society in which people feel safe and comfortable, we can't get distracted by current scientific findings that can't explain why we should discuss this. Paradigm shifts have happened over the centuries and we should value morality as a good in itself.
Additionally, let's not confuse morality with judeo-christian morality, in which there are restrictions on sex, eating, and so on. Those two religions are a mess and we should start over our discussion of morality apart from them.
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12-08-2009, 01:49 PM
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You look like Tyler bro
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